C-200 vs Zotec ION debate

[tux99]

(06-28-2009 05:47 PM)joe citizen Wrote:  One of the biggest problems I have with HTPCs are their boot up times. When I want to watch a movie I dont want to wait forever for the device to start up.

The PCH takes 1 minute to boot up, an average Linux boot of a recent distro takes 30-45 seconds, with some optimization you can achieve even less.
If you use suspend-to-RAM (STR) you can have a Linux HTPC up in 5-10 seconds.

[chris57]

(06-29-2009 03:17 AM)tux99 Wrote:  The PCH takes 1 minute to boot up, an average Linux boot of a recent distro takes 30-45 seconds, with some optimization you can achieve even less.
If you use suspend-to-RAM (STR) you can have a Linux HTPC up in 5-10 seconds.

You see this is the problem as you have absolutely no idea as to how long the C200 takes to boot.

[daniel_owen_uk]

Price comparison is a bit wrong, it's going to look a bit poop without a case

[Pucco]

A lot of the fancy functionality of the PCH requires a PC running as a server in the background. That will definitely add to the cost off using a PCH.

[halfelite]

(06-29-2009 09:50 AM)Pucco Wrote:  A lot of the fancy functionality of the PCH requires a PC running as a server in the background. That will definitely add to the cost off using a PCH.

Yes but fancy does not effect playback. added functions does not add to cost.
Does everyone really need the weather. The director actor. Imdb score on every movie they have. Do people even read it. Or is it more of then I can do it so I will.

[dc11ab]

Pucco; I know about the limitations of support for certain formats (rmvb, mms) and onboard tv-tuners (not counting HDHomeRun), but what do you refer to apart from that?

You can get quite a lot of fancy functionality straight on the current NMT generation already today without the need of a server.

And given that this thread topic is vs. the C-200, which nobody here has really tested and explored, I can't see how you can make that statement already.

[tux99]

(06-29-2009 08:55 AM)chris57 Wrote:  You see this is the problem as you have absolutely no idea as to how long the C200 takes to boot.

Of course I was referring to the A100/A110, as the C200 is not available yet.

My post was mostly in reply to someone who thought HTPCs take too long to boot, so the boot time of the C200 isn't really relevant in this context.

[chris57]

(06-29-2009 07:40 PM)tux99 Wrote:  Of course I was referring to the A100/A110, as the C200 is not available yet.

My post was mostly in reply to someone who thought HTPCs take too long to boot, so the boot time of the C200 isn't really relevant in this context.

That may have been your intention but I can't read your mind and with the thread title C200 v ION I reasoned that you would be on topic.

[spawn]

The way I see it - there will allways be advantages and disadvantages of both worlds

Htpc's obviously have their advantages in terms of freedom to design it any way the user want - but are limited in terms of the skills needed in order to really reach the goal - it is not as simple as many beleives, it is not just an average joe's few hours work to build an optimum htpc that can compete an NMT in every aspect - and its definately not easier with htpc's like those based on limited cpu like the Atom which have to rely on working GPU accelerated environments for their media playback - and its never cheaper.

NMT's or similar sollutions are simpler with less possibilitites in some areas - but they do come with an out of the box ability to play most of the media from the comfort of your couch without the users having to be experts on linux VPDAU or Vista DXVA etc. - and without users having to figure out alot of stuff to get the chosen mediacenter interface or the remote, or the videooutput or the audiooutput etc. etc. working comfortably

As I see it they have different user bases, and can easily coexist - like I have said before theres a reason why theres still lots of people buying standalone dvd-players, bluray players, hdtv receivers etc. - despite all of these could be build into a htpc. Its the same users that choose an NMT over a HTPC.

[tux99]

(06-29-2009 09:30 PM)spawn Wrote:  As I see it they have different user bases, and can easily coexist - like I have said before theres a reason why theres still lots of people buying standalone dvd-players, bluray players, hdtv receivers etc. - despite all of these could be build into a htpc. Its the same users that choose an NMT over a HTPC.

All you say is very true, but I fear that unless Syabas starts selling their A-110 or C-200 in more mainstream stores like PCWorld (UK), Mediamarkt (Germany), BestBuy (US) and other similar places around the world, they will be squeezed out of the market because currently, by mostly selling direct to customers online and through other smaller local online retailers, they are only reaching a small crowd of enthusiasts for whom the step up to a HTPC is not unfeasible, especially now that the ION chipset has reduced the cost and size of full-HD capable HTPCs quite considerably.
(and with specialized distributions like Mythbuntu or XBMC-Live installing a HTPC has never been easier)

I think you are right there are a lot of potential PCH customers out there that would never consider a HTPC, but these customers currently have only seen/heard of the WDTV or other similar devices as you can buy them in high street stores and therefore they are advertised much more.

Also the C-200 has to be quite a bit more bug free than the A-100/110 to keep those kinds of customers happy, they wouldn't hang around this forum waiting for months for some bug to get fixed.

[halfelite]

(06-29-2009 10:54 PM)tux99 Wrote:  All you say is very true, but I fear that unless Syabas starts selling their A-110 or C-200 in more mainstream stores like PCWorld (UK), Mediamarkt (Germany), BestBuy (US) and other similar places around the world, they will be squeezed out of the market because currently, by mostly selling direct to customers online and through other smaller local online retailers, they are only reaching a small crowd of enthusiasts for whom the step up to a HTPC is not unfeasible, especially now that the ION chipset has reduced the cost and size of full-HD capable HTPCs quite considerably.
(and with specialized distributions like Mythbuntu or XBMC-Live installing a HTPC has never been easier)

I think you are right there are a lot of potential PCH customers out there that would never consider a HTPC, but these customers currently have only seen/heard of the WDTV or other similar devices as you can buy them in high street stores and therefore they are advertised much more.

Also the C-200 has to be quite a bit more bug free than the A-100/110 to keep those kinds of customers happy, they wouldn't hang around this forum waiting for months for some bug to get fixed.

I see yes and no from this. Being a sonos music system owner. I have watched them take the same course they started small. then eventually ended up making sales at bestbuy. But fom there forums 90% still buy from online.

[spawn]

absolutely correct tux- thechnology is one thing - easy availability and mainstream exposure another

Mainstream knowledge about the product and sales would increase alot if it were an on the shelf product in major stores - im sure thats a big part of the WD's quick sucess - I can get it in several stores I frequent regularly. Im not sure if Syabas have the production and distribution capacity yet for something like this - I would imagine WD to have a much larger scaled production capacity and certainly allready all the distribution channels in place for all their other products. The same goes for products like the Acer Reon or Asus EEE box - I have an EEE box bought this way - but that really didnt live up to the hype imho, the EEE box just barely played 720p using mediaplayer homecinema with hw acceleration, but it was a pain having to use the windows interface to navigate to my files and play them using mpch (the preinstalled mediacenter didnt support a fraction of the fileformats I wanted to play) - and the video output from the ATI chip was pants compared to my A-110 qualitywise, showing all the usual problems with tearing in overlay etc. which as usual will take a computer techie to correct - its still just a computer attached to my tv - its not a mediaplayer designed to be a mediaplayer that just works out of the box

on top of that I dont much like linux and mythbuntu etc (Im Microsoft educated - you know, the enemy ), and propably wouldent bother spend the time setting this up to get something half usable from an eeebox - neither would anyone I know IRL except the server administrator at work Im sorry but imho linux distros of any kind are still far from being mainstream for the average joe's I meet everyday in my line of work. And afaik Xbmc only support hardware acceleration under Linux VPDAU with a specific driverset, not in their XP installation which the eeebox are delivered with and 80% of its users will propably stay on because they dont know any better. To me these kinds of htpc sollutions are even more for the techies we also see in the NMT forums. mr and mrs smith who needs my help setting up their email account in outlook express are hardly embarging into the adventure of configuring some linux distro to get an ION or similar working as a comfortable mediacenter. These users I beleive are the wast majority of users out there, they just want to turn on the device and be impressed that they can play some media files. I agree there are many that can and will use something like ION/Linux to its full extend, but I doubt its the majority of customers.

And Syabas and the NMT's are not widespread enough themselves yet for it to be a problem if a number of techie users prefer an ION/Linux - they have hardly even tapped into the large usergroup of non techie users that would prefer an NMT kind of sollution over an ION yet - so its no loss as such, yet - theres still plenty of other customers to sell to. Its not yet a clear case of either/or - theres still plenty room for both to have descent sales - but to different groups. Its apples and bannanas, Id have to sell alot of apples before I reach a point where theres no new apple eaters left and I would have to look to bannana eaters to try and get new customers. Im not really seing these two markets chrashing heads just yet.

But im not disagreeing as such, I cant really disagree with the valid points in this thread - there are many things to consider here, the market of alternatives seem to be exploding right now, and naturally Syabas has to keep improving stability (fixing those bugs), mainstream availability and reckognition, competitive features etc to stay in business.

[emveepee]

I now have my ASRock ION 330 and the only thing keeping me from strongly recommending the A110 (note not even C-200) has been the inability of Syabas to move to newer firmware that would support improvements such as HE-AAC as most media players do, even the C-200 shows this capability. With linux there is constant evolution and maximization of the hardware, with the current PCH my feeling is we are in a rut

Don't get me started with mpc hc. It works well on Win 7 RC but because I rushed (and don't have any more licenses) it would cost me $249 CDN to get the full Home Premium. Even with an OEM Vista and an upgrade it would cost $200. Do your wallet a favour and wait for OEM Win 7 if you are considering an ION and Win 7.

Martin

[tux99]

Spawn, no offense but the eee-pc is not really well suited as a HTPC, as for that purpose currently Nvidia chips are far better than ATI (you should have done more research first, instead of an impulse buy ).
The Acer Revo is OK but the Asrock ION 330 is currently best as it has a dualcore Atom which makes it more tollerant to cpu-intensive tasks.

Even if you are a Windows guy, if you have a desktop PC or laptop with a recent Nvidia (8xxx or 9xxx GPU) card, try out XBMC-Live once, just out of curiosity so you know what others are talking about , it boots straight off CD, no need to install and easy to use for anyone moderately 'techy', no need to be a Linux expert.

Anyway, we both agree Sybas has a big potential market, but it needs to tap into it, being available in high street stores gives it exposure and brand recognition, even if some/many people then end up buying it online because it's cheaper.
If it stays with it's current sales model, I doubt it will have the success it deserves.

[spawn]

(06-30-2009 12:42 AM)tux99 Wrote:  Spawn, no offense but the eee-pc is not really well suited as a HTPC, as for that purpose currently Nvidia chips are far better than ATI (you should have done more research first, instead of an impulse buy ).
The Acer Revo is OK but the Asrock ION 330 is currently best as it has a dualcore Atom which makes it more tollerant to cpu-intensive tasks.

Oh but I knew that in advance - it wasnt an impulse buy and I didnt expect it to perform any different - I only got it then to test it and prove myself right in the ongoing "NMT killer thread" of that time where again someone made one of these - that time about the EEE box based on some preview they saw on the internet. I had no other use for it I think Omnium was one of the core speakers in that thread, Omnium who later moved on to the next NMT killer thread about the ION where he was hellbend on the wonders of his Acer Revo versus his NMT and that would certainly be the end of the NMT and all its limitations. Fun part is now he's all active in the xtreamer forum expecting wonders from the xtreamer, so I gather his Acer Revo wasnt that wonderfull after all

(06-30-2009 12:42 AM)tux99 Wrote:  Even if you are a Windows guy, if you have a desktop PC or laptop with a recent Nvidia (8xxx or 9xxx GPU) card, try out XBMC-Live once, just out of curiosity so you know what others are talking about , it boots straight off CD, no need to install and easy to use for anyone moderately 'techy', no need to be a Linux expert.

I also tried Xbmc in several different versions (though not the live cd) - and allthough i made the statements about MS and Linux, I have made many different Linux installations myself over time - its not that it scares me personally - its just I know so incredibly many that arent even moderately "techy" and call me all the time for help on the most basic windows stuff - if I were ever to recommend anything linux like to them I know who would be supporting them 24/7 instead of just 12/7

But Ill give the Xbmc live cd a test

(06-30-2009 12:42 AM)tux99 Wrote:  Anyway, we both agree Sybas has a big potential market, but it needs to tap into it, being available in high street stores gives it exposure and brand recognition, even if some/many people then end up buying it online because it's cheaper.
If it stays with it's current sales model, I doubt it will have the success it deserves.

I agree

---

(06-30-2009 12:39 AM)emveepee Wrote:  I now have my ASRock ION 330 and the only thing keeping me from strongly recommending the A110 (note not even C-200) has been the inability of Syabas to move to newer firmware that would support improvements such as HE-AAC as most media players do, even the C-200 shows this capability. With linux there is constant evolution and maximization of the hardware, with the current PCH my feeling is we are in a rut

Exactly - its all down to the software implementation on these SoC sollutions like the NMT - to stay competitive with sollutions like htpc's its imperative that the software implementation gets constantly optimised and the posibilities utilised to its fullest. If anything will hurt the use and sales of these devices its the manufacturers themselves and the level of how good the software is implemented.