Wireless Streaming of Full (30-60Mbps) BD Streams ... a BKM

[MITblackjackjm]

UPDATE 2010.12.23:
(1) Please note that with the latest released firmware updates to the 200 series products (A200 and C200) NFS has not been required to get a full and reliable stream with the most demanding source material. This makes implementation much easier for most installations. If you still use an A110, you must continue to use NFS or "stuttering" will occur. It is a PCH firmware SMB implementation issue and not the inability of the wireless gateway connections described below.

(2) Now using the Ruckus 7363 WAP for general and video stream use. This is not a "consumer" based product, but it works extremely well and costs a lot less than wiring your home or in cases where hard wiring is impossible. This is combined with the 7111 units that are connected to the PCH A200/C200 units.

Below I will outline what has taken me years to get to ...

A BKM (best known method) to reliably stream a full, uncompressed high definition video and audio BD stream that can range up to 30-60 Mbps.

This is no trivial task, but I have been doing it in a large 2 story home for almost 2 years now without a single issue and with the toughest BD transfers available.

For the PCH players (I own the A110 and A200 and have tested the Popbox) the limitations become the PCH implementation issues with Samba, necessitating NFS, and NOT problems with wireless bandwidth. If you use a PC (Windows 7 based) for viewing you can connect as normal and typically not have to worry about transfer protocols.

To keep things short, the BKM consists of the following:

1) NFS file transfer is a must with the PCH products ... the difference compared to SAMBA is HUGE (it should not be but it is)

2) Ruckus 7811 wireless AP and Ruckus 7111 Wi-Fi adapter in a bridge configuration
http://www.ruckuswireless.com/products/m...000-series

3) Must know how to rip BD media to correct file configurations. I currently use .ts for all full BD rips and MKV for DVD's and HD(720p) TV.

I use toNMT, SupRip, and tsMuxer for BD and Handbrake and MKVToolnix for DVD's with AnyDVDHD to remove encryption and allow ripping. Have wanted to go to full MKV file implementations, but the PCH A110 will not handle full BD stream MKV files (it chokes) and the A200 with the current firmware is a mess. The latest MakeMKV is very promising and produces files that play perfectly with MPC-HC and VLC, but the A200 won't pass audio correctly and subtitles are hit or miss as of this date ... but MakeMKV makes getting subtitles and "forced" subtitles much easier than any way I have used in the past.

The Ruckus 7000 series products are targeted to professional HD IPTV installations. They run at 5GHz only and will truely support full 60Mbps transfers continuosly. The 5GHz band is important as it eliminates most typcial interference modes from other wireless gear, phones, uwave ovens, etc. This combined with the Ruckus antenna technologies makes for the best quality signal that I have ever seen in a reasonably priced product. The 7811 and 7111 together should cost about $350. This is not cheap, but it is far cheaper than wiring your home if you do not already have Ethernet 5e or 6 type cabling installed. They are also not easy to find for the consumer, but you can search on line and find suppliers. I have used ExpressNets in the past and they were great, but not sure on whether still avialable there or not. http://www.expressnets.com/sales/default.asp

I currently have been using this kind of set up for about 2 years without a single streaming issue once it was realized that NFS file transfer had to be implemented. All video files are streamed wirelessly to a PCH A110 (PCH A200 under test, but not ready for easy upgrade) with a central 15TB Windows Home Server System. Have been using the PCH A110 with a My Lil Juke Box interface which requires Movie Collector software, but allows more customization and cover optimization than some of the YAMJ implementations. I have those working now with the AEON skin and may implement to "production" in the future.

This set up allows "Grandma", wife and kids to operate and view with little if any "how do I do that?" questions, and a solid, turn it on and it works implementation.

I hope that this information is helpful. I have not gone into details on how to hook up and use the Ruckus products, assuming that most readers of these forums will know how or can figure out. Please post replies if more information needed and I will be glad to answer as I have time.

The bottom line is that this works and works extremely well. I have tried almost all "consumer" targeted products from Linksys, DLink, NetGear, etc. ... None of them will provide a consistent wireless solution to stream full BD type media ... The Ruckus does ... their "G" wireless 2825 router/AP is also one of the best out there as well and can handle DVD and most if not all 720p streams ... but not the full BD streams that are discussed above.

[chris57]

The SMB v NFS is not specifically PCH related. All devices operate with NFS better than SMB if you are using WiFi and linux based OS, most NAS and set top boxes do use linux.
WHS uses M$ OS and default is Samba rather than NFS, so I would say it's a WHS issue, as it doesn't use NFS natively.

NFS packets and processing are easier for a Linux based box to accept and process than SMB ones. Same goes for powerline as well.

And what's this about the latest version of mkvmerge being very promising etc. mkvmerge has suddenly without warning implemented compression in both audio and video which has negligible effect on size and causes the majority of players to not play the MKV files, hardly promising and gain not the fault of the PCH. MPC couldn't play these files until it was recently updated and the PS3 cannot play them along with many other devices.

The RC2 firmware has been adopted to allow these files to play but to say that this change to mkvmerge is promising is very strange. The reason why it was done according to the developer was for low quality files for handheld devices, not for those of us that want the high quality 1:1 MKV backups.

[TheAxledentalDJ]

I've seen this posted on the AVS forum. There are still some variables at MITblackjackjm location that might be unique to his setup. Maybe until I see 100 more people setup exactly as MITblackjackjm did, I'm not spending any money or time to accomplish this. Since I trust ethernet/ wired setup and am happy with it.

[MITblackjackjm]

(08-08-2010 11:20 PM)chris57 Wrote:  The SMB v NFS is not specifically PCH related. All devices operate with NFS better than SMB if you are using WiFi and linux based OS, most NAS and set top boxes do use linux.
WHS uses M$ OS and default is Samba rather than NFS, so I would say it's a WHS issue, as it doesn't use NFS natively.

NFS packets and processing are easier for a Linux based box to accept and process than SMB ones. Same goes for powerline as well.

And what's this about the latest version of mkvmerge being very promising etc. mkvmerge has suddenly without warning implemented compression in both audio and video which has negligible effect on size and causes the majority of players to not play the MKV files, hardly promising and gain not the fault of the PCH. MPC couldn't play these files until it was recently updated and the PS3 cannot play them along with many other devices.

The RC2 firmware has been adopted to allow these files to play but to say that this change to mkvmerge is promising is very strange. The reason why it was done according to the developer was for low quality files for handheld devices, not for those of us that want the high quality 1:1 MKV backups.

Not MKVMerge ... MakeMKV ... it does a very nice job of directly creating an MKV from a BD disc, iso image, etc. ... and quickest way to get the "forced" subtitles ...

The MKVToolnix/MKVmerge is a different package ...

[accident]

makemkv writes out some funky incomplete stuff in the mkv header that does mess with some players that are less forgiving.. I know the 200 has some fixes for this in the next firmware but i'm not sure if or when they will make it to the 100 series...

I've found the mkWDclean command line utility which comes with mkclean at the matroska site works really well at fixing mkv's with questionable settings and cues for the WD player, I've started to use it to clean up questionable mkvs I use with the pch players..

[MITblackjackjm]

(08-08-2010 11:24 PM)TheAxledentalDJ Wrote:  I've seen this posted on the AVS forum. There are still some variables at MITblackjackjm location that might be unique to his setup. Maybe until I see 100 more people setup exactly as MITblackjackjm did, I'm not spending any money or time to accomplish this. Since I trust ethernet/ wired setup and am happy with it.

Hardwired is the best way to go if possible ... but the Ruckus solution is actually better than standard ethernet with regards to performance in many regards. It is not the equivalent of Gigabit ethernet, but that has issues with the PCH devices. Standard Fast Ethernet should be fine for most home installations ... but if you have a lot of traffic it still might "clog".

I use the Ruckus 7811/7111 bridge for dedicated home theater communication ... HD video/audio, Slingbox connection and iTunes airport express streaming ... it is flawless and "just like a wire"

A Ruckus 2825 serves as the main "G" wireless AP and again is solid as a rock ... Performance is much better than most "consumer" "N" solutions in terms of real world performance.

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(08-09-2010 12:11 AM)accident Wrote:  makemkv writes out some funky incomplete stuff in the mkv header that does mess with some players that are less forgiving.. I know the 200 has some fixes for this in the next firmware but i'm not sure if or when they will make it to the 100 series...

I've found the mkWDclean command line utility which comes with mkclean at the matroska site works really well at fixing mkv's with questionable settings and cues for the WD player, I've started to use it to clean up questionable mkvs I use with the pch players..

I have been testing the MakeMKV files and remuxing with MKVToolnix 4.2.0 with the compression set to none.

How do I know if the file is "questionable" when it plays perfectly on a PC with both MPC-HC and VLC? ... But on the A110 it just stutters and on the A200 it is anyones guess what will happen ... I have seen files never show the subtitle, shift audio depending on section played, freeze, etc. ... Play on a PC with MPC-HC and VLC and smooth as silk ... :-(

The same files when using the same core tracks in a .ts container run fine on the A110 ... some issues with the A200 and .srt subtitles but with no subtitles things are fine.

Never have these issues with 720p and lower MKV files or "compressed" 1080p ... but want the full BD stream with no compression beyond the original. Have never had any success with the A110 or A200 with full BD MKV material and have been trying and testing in different configs for years. ... :-(

[chris57]

As we always say what plays on a PC with their software players bears no/little resemblence as to whether a file should play on any hardware player.
PC's use software and masses amount of cpu and memory power to play files, hardware players don't.

If you look at the release notes of the current cycle you'll see fixes specifically for makeMKV. You never see any for AnyDVD as that backups the files correctly although obviously not in an MKV, upside you can keep your BD menu if you are a C200 owner.

[Useraid]

Do ruckus do a dual band simultaneous solution that is that powerful? Would not want to exclude the occasional legacy device.

[MITblackjackjm]

(08-09-2010 02:53 AM)Useraid Wrote:  Do ruckus do a dual band simultaneous solution that is that powerful? Would not want to exclude the occasional legacy device.

Yes they do but it is targeted at commercial applications and more than most consumers would pay ...
http://www.ruckuswireless.com/products/z...300-series
http://www.ruckuswireless.com/products/z...h-end/7962

I have not tested either as of this date.

I do not use the 7811 AP as a general wireless AP ... it is for home theater and media only. Use the 2825 for general wireless. While it is a "G" device, as I mentioned earlier, its real world performance surpasses most "N" type consumer devices.

[Useraid]

Read some reviews of their other dual band APs, seems performance is mixed, so might not work as well as the devices you mention. I really don't want to have multiple aps around the house though turned on 24/7, can you set the AP to a schedule so the radio turns off when you want it to?

I've just moved from 11n wireless to powerline... but I am *still* having issues and this sort of solution might be the answer. Wiring really isn;t an option, would have to go under stone, and be prohibitively expensive as well as messy.

[MITblackjackjm]

(08-09-2010 01:30 AM)chris57 Wrote:  As we always say what plays on a PC with their software players bears no/little resemblence as to whether a file should play on any hardware player.
PC's use software and masses amount of cpu and memory power to play files, hardware players don't.

If you look at the release notes of the current cycle you'll see fixes specifically for makeMKV. You never see any for AnyDVD as that backups the files correctly although obviously not in an MKV, upside you can keep your BD menu if you are a C200 owner.

So I still am unclear as to how to know if have a file that is "correct" for PCH playback. I will start another post but this is crazy ... how do you create a 1:1 MKV file from a BD that you know will play on the PCH. I have tried many ways and none have worked consistently for different titles. Gave up long ago but am starting to revisit. Would like to move to a full MKV video base but does not seem possible with any PCH player right now...but only for the 1:1 MKV files created from BD ...

I currently use AnyDVDHD ... very nice ... and .iso file sizes typically 30-50Gb when all I am interested in is the main title with audio and subtitles if needed. ...

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(08-09-2010 03:29 AM)Useraid Wrote:  Read some reviews of their other dual band APs, seems performance is mixed, so might not work as well as the devices you mention. I really don't want to have multiple aps around the house though turned on 24/7, can you set the AP to a schedule so the radio turns off when you want it to?

I've just moved from 11n wireless to powerline... but I am *still* having issues and this sort of solution might be the answer. Wiring really isn;t an option, would have to go under stone, and be prohibitively expensive as well as messy.

I have never had success with powerline type LAN connections for high bandwidth streaming. Have not tried for a while but have not been impressed with those that I have seen.

On the dual band devices I cannot offer personal inputs as I have not tested or used...I will just say that the Ruckus devices that I do use and have tested have all been "best of breed" for signal performance. Be wary of reviews that do not look at real world and video transfer perfromance. Many others may "test" high in some burst modes but they fail miserably when trying to stream full BD video/audio.

You have to remember that the Ruckus devices I mentioned are targeted at IPTV install applications. They do not have schedule turn off options, etc. Not sure what the issue you are concerned about is. Power is minimal and can be secured with WPA2 AES type encryption. I use 63 character passwords generated randomly. Once they are set on the devices it is like having a wired connection. You do not have to enter on the computer or PCH attached... it is a bridge configuration.

You can generate passwords here or by many other methods:
https://www.grc.com/passwords.htm

[Useraid]

Sounds interesting, I think I could actually do away with 2.4ghz and not many would notice, could always have another AP ready to turn on for those odd occasions as well.

One other thing, would the AP still perform optimally/fit in a radiator unit? It has a very small space between metal rad and wood, and maybe 5 inches on top, otherwise AP would have to be placed in alcove behind another brick wall, which historically really kills the performance ( would prefer not to have ugly device out in open ;p).

I'm following your advice about NFS and enabling Services for NFS on windows server now.

Was wondering on how you would comment on this review though: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/802....05-20.html is it a fair assessment? I have a Belkin router that isn't miles off the performance quoted there, but falls down horribly for streaming.

[MITblackjackjm]

(08-09-2010 03:56 AM)Useraid Wrote:  Sounds interesting, I think I could actually do away with 2.4ghz and not many would notice, could always have another AP ready to turn on for those odd occasions as well.

One other thing, would the AP still perform optimally/fit in a radiator unit? It has a very small space between metal rad and wood, and maybe 5 inches on top, otherwise AP would have to be placed in alcove behind another brick wall, which historically really kills the performance ( would prefer not to have ugly device out in open ;p).

I'm following your advice about NFS and enabling Services for NFS on windows server now.

Was wondering on how you would comment on this review though: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/802....05-20.html is it a fair assessment? I have a Belkin router that isn't miles off the performance quoted there, but falls down horribly for streaming.

NFS will not help if you are running into wireless or power lan bandwidth issues ... but for me Samba became the limiting factor for full BD wireless after installing the Ruckus solution. And it took me a little while to find that out as I kept complaining to the product manager at Ruckus that could not get full 40-60Mbps transfers ... then I started hearing about the Samba issues with the PCH and found out how to set up NFS on a WHS and wow... everything started working ... :-)

You are seeing exactly what happens with "consumer" based units ... look good on paper and sometimes on burst tests ... but in real world they stink for high bandwidth video transfers.

Tom's is generally pretty good for thorough reviewing ... but wireless is not a strong point for many of these review sites.

Anantech is really good in general as well .. http://www.anandtech.com/

I am just going to say that my personal experience has been so good and so much better with the Ruckus products that I highly recommend. My second best experience has been with DLink stuff but it does not compare. I have not looked at anything new recently so can not make good comparison to anything new.

On location, this is always a possible issue. I do not have brick walls anywhere but location of the 7811 access point is on the second floor far from the 7111 adapter in a large home. You would have to determine if and what issues might arise.

Also a reminder that I do not use this as a general wireless connection ... it is 5GHz only by design and this can be an issue for general use. It is also an AP only ... not a wireless router. I use a Syswan SW24 load balancing router with multi WAN inputs in home office for load balancing and redundancy needed for my business.

This is also not for a non techie to install ... you need to have some knowledge for best installation ... I prefer to manually set up via IP address entry admin, but you need to be comfortable doing this and understand how to do it with your computer/laptop. It is not hard, but need to have some basic knowledge of networks, wireless and IP addresses, etc.

[accident]

(08-09-2010 03:33 AM)MITblackjackjm Wrote:  So I still am unclear as to how to know if have a file that is "correct" for PCH playback.

Well thats simple, play it on the pch The hard part with using pctools to play it is theres a good chance thats what the makemkv developers used to test also, so when their mkvs played on that setup, makemkv was considered compatible enough...

The pch is probably the best standalone embedded player for many formats, especially mkv and especially after this next firmware comes out (as far as 200's go).. There might not be any thing you need to do but wait, although I see in your sig that your a 100 user...

Quote:how do you create a 1:1 MKV file from a BD that you know will play on the PCH.

Lately I've used 3 methods for high bitrate mkvs and still deciding which I like best..

1: http streaming instead of mounts, somewhere I have a huge post on streaming vs shares but I find http to offer the best chance of fluid playback because of the transport differences vs file reading over the network..

2: the mkWDclean tool that matroska put out is designed to optimize an mkv file, fix cues, adjust headers for the wd live platform, it makes a very clean mkv file and i've started to test using this as part of my conversion process..

3: mkv does have specific things in it for streaming, the new google codec uses this subsection of mkv as its container because their codec is designed for internet viewing over varying bandwidth, also via an http transport.. i'm not sure the best tools to achieve a "streaming mkv file". To explain how a file setup for streaming is different is a very long whitepaper i'm not in the mood to type right now, but in short the files are a hair larger because they contain a seperate track which helps the transport know where the low bitrate spots are to rush in extra frames so when its higher there is more room for congestion to not get in the way.

However, to make sure I'm clear...

I'm using mkWDclean to help with questionable files for my 100 series players, but I have excellent success with http streaming of mkv files to 100 and 200 series players from a variety of nas devices to many players going at the same time in the house. The streaming side of things I'm starting to play with because I think the combo of http+wireless+streaming optimized mkv file might be a great way to do wireless streaming but I'm just testing it because i'm not sure the extra filesize is worth it yet especially when I've started to see protoypes of wigig (1g+ wireless in the house including removing cables between devices and your tv).

[Useraid]

At the moment I use Cisco 877W as a router, and would like to stick with it. I have tried a 50ft cat cable on it directly to C200 and it does have enough throughput even over SMB for the highest bitrate content I could throw at it.

Last month I was even attempting to go from Server/Router via powerline to another location in the same room and then from powerline back to wireless AP as the AP on that side of the room performed just well enough for most HD. Needless to say the powerline bottleneck/latency combined with wireless did not do the trick, and I just put a powerline straight in c200 and it seemed alright for a while, but I also have a nasty issue where the eco device goes to sleep and when it WOL it is really slow until you reset it, which is unusable in real life. Plus it can only deliver maybe 35-40mbit at the very best which doesn't quite cut the mustard for many premium quality remuxes and encodes.

Quote:accident wrote: 1: http streaming instead of mounts, somewhere I have a huge post on streaming

Here: http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showth...#pid399585 You were helping me out