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[C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
06-03-2011, 01:35 AM
Post: #151
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
(06-02-2011 05:09 AM)Dave_D Wrote:  Forced subs only work on BDMV & MKV.

Forced subs work fine with BD ISOs. That's why the English subs in Tora! Tora! Tora! are displayed without having to turn them on manually; they're true forced subs. It's default subs that don't work--even with BDMV folder structures.

There's always been a lot of confusion regarding the difference between these two subtitle types. Both are enabled without user intervention, but the mechanism behind them is different.

Unless I'm doing something wrong when I rip my discs, default subs need to be fixed for BD ISO and BDMV playback. They don't work in Gran Torino and they don't work in Avatar, both of which use default subs.
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06-03-2011, 01:47 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 01:48 AM by halfelite.)
Post: #152
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
As far as i know default tracks in bluray are not honored the same as they were on dvd. On dvd a default track would play on playback. bluray it should not do that. avatar does not use default it uses forced flags from the default track if i remember right.
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06-03-2011, 01:58 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 02:07 AM by thirdkind.)
Post: #153
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
(06-03-2011 01:47 AM)halfelite Wrote:  As far as i know default tracks in bluray are not honored the same as they were on dvd. On dvd a default track would play on playback. bluray it should not do that. avatar does not use default it uses forced flags from the default track if i remember right.

If I play the actual Blu-ray disc of Gran Torino in my Oppo BDP-93 or PS3, the default English subtitle tracks for foreign language segments are displayed without having to turn them on. The same happens with Avatar when the N'aavi speak. These subtitle tracks are separate tracks on the disc (default) that are enabled by the player, while true forced subtitles are usually embedded in the same subtitle stream as other subtitles.

On the C-200, I have to turn these subtitles on manually in both cases if playing back from BDMV or ISO. If memory serves, the subtitles did work when playing the actual discs themselves, but I uninstalled the BD drive I had and can't test that now.

The same behavior should be expected whether playing back the disc or a proper ISO rip.
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06-03-2011, 02:53 AM
Post: #154
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
(06-03-2011 01:58 AM)thirdkind Wrote:  
(06-03-2011 01:47 AM)halfelite Wrote:  As far as i know default tracks in bluray are not honored the same as they were on dvd. On dvd a default track would play on playback. bluray it should not do that. avatar does not use default it uses forced flags from the default track if i remember right.

If I play the actual Blu-ray disc of Gran Torino in my Oppo BDP-93 or PS3, the default English subtitle tracks for foreign language segments are displayed without having to turn them on. The same happens with Avatar when the N'aavi speak. These subtitle tracks are separate tracks on the disc (default) that are enabled by the player, while true forced subtitles are usually embedded in the same subtitle stream as other subtitles.

On the C-200, I have to turn these subtitles on manually in both cases if playing back from BDMV or ISO. If memory serves, the subtitles did work when playing the actual discs themselves, but I uninstalled the BD drive I had and can't test that now.

The same behavior should be expected whether playing back the disc or a proper ISO rip.

Double check avatar im almost positive its not default track and forced track. Like i said default track by default on bluray should not start playing forced flags should not default
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06-03-2011, 04:23 AM
Post: #155
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
They're not forced, they're an entirely separate subtitle track flagged as default. Same with Gran Torino. That's why so many people have difficulty when they rip these movies and opt to include "forced subtitles only" in whatever software they use. There's no forced flag, so they don't get included.

Before I abandoned MKVs in favor of straight ISO rips, I remember having to demux Avatar and use BDSup2Sub to set the forced flag manually on the sub file before remuxing.

If subtitles flagged as default aren't supposed to play automatically, somebody needs to let Oppo and Sony know because they seem to be doing it wrong Wink
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06-03-2011, 04:38 AM
Post: #156
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
I know bluray authoring software like adobe encore default does not play auto, what is the default track based off of? It has to be in conjunction with an audio track. IE english track default to sub track, Also a single track can be a forced track without being set default but being set forced.

Everyone authors there disc's a little different its the reason people have trouble what works to grab subs on say avatar might not work for kill bill. So you have to really dive into the disc going off what software rippers do is not very good because most throw all solutions under a single button. I will try to pull my avatar disc out and pick it apart to see what it really is.
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06-03-2011, 05:01 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 05:11 AM by Dave_D.)
Post: #157
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
Ok let's all get on the same page here;

Go to SETUP > BD/DVD/Audio CD

Subtitle Language = ENGLISH <---- this enables DEFAULT subtitles
BD Navigation = Full Navigation <---- this means we use the disc's menu

I go to my HD where I keep a BDMV of Avatar and I hit enter to start playback, I also press NEXT to avoid the Avatar playback Bug.

I see the main Menu. I press PLAY without going to the disc's own Setup menu.

I SEE subtitles

[Image: photo5hh.jpg]


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I press STOP

I go back to SETUP > BD/DVD/Audio CD

Subtitle Language = OFF

I go back to play AVATAR again.

This time NO subtitles displayed after starting the movie.

[Image: photo6jb.jpg]


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

That's how DEFAULT is supposed to work.

I jump to the scene where Sulley is taken to hometree.

[Image: photo7vj.jpg]


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I see NAVI subtitles. These are FORCED subtitles because they are shown without me asking and even Subtitle Language in BD/DVD/Audio CD is set to OFF.

The reason it's working properly for Avatar is because it was authored to actually check what subtitle language is set on the player. The reason it doesn't work on others is because those discs were authored to ASK for a language during start of playback even before getting to the main BD menu. When they author it that way (ask for a language at start of playback), it does NOT follow the normal performance of using default language anymore.

Discs that are guilty of this is Disney's Cars, Armageddon, even Disney's recent Alice in Wonderland.

A200 connected to 32" Samsung UA32C5000
C200 connected to Denon 1610 AVR and 42" LG 42LH50YR
Encore ENHGS-500 5 port Gigabit switch.
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[+] 1 user says Thank You to Dave_D for this post
06-03-2011, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 05:14 AM by thirdkind.)
Post: #158
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
As I said, I ripped Avatar to MKV at one point and had to manually set the N'aavi subtitle track to forced. This is the extended cut, by the way.

However these tracks are flagged and however the discs are authored, all I'm trying to say is that playing back an ISO or BDMV should offer the same behavior as playing back the actual disc, and that's not the case currently. When I played the discs on the C-200, the subtitles worked as expected. When I play BDMV or ISO, they don't.
(06-03-2011 05:01 AM)Dave_D Wrote:  I jump to the scene where Sulley is taken to hometree.

I see NAVI subtitles.

I do not. Others do not, as has been posted elsewhere on the forum.

If I play the disc itself, subtitles work as expected. If I play an ISO, they don't.

May I ask how you ripped the disc? Maybe it's something I'm doing or the process I'm using.
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06-03-2011, 05:15 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 05:19 AM by Dave_D.)
Post: #159
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
And what I'm saying is that your issue occurs on certain rips not ALL of them.

I ripped mine AGAIN using the latest copy of AnyDVD HD.

I'm not pointing fingers but some users downloaded their copies.

If a user grabbed an old internet download of RED_BIRD, those are still using an old AnyDVD that was hackjobbed because scene releasers are in competition with each other to release first (there's no glory for 2nd place). That method means there is going to be some corners cut and sometimes it results in poor work/encodes.

A200 connected to 32" Samsung UA32C5000
C200 connected to Denon 1610 AVR and 42" LG 42LH50YR
Encore ENHGS-500 5 port Gigabit switch.
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06-03-2011, 05:37 AM
Post: #160
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
(06-03-2011 05:15 AM)Dave_D Wrote:  I ripped mine AGAIN using the latest copy of AnyDVD HD.

Would you mind posting your settings? I also use AnyDVD. That's why I'm stumped.
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06-03-2011, 06:00 AM
Post: #161
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
Pretty much default, I just remove region settings when ripping so that my A200 can avoid issues (A200 doesn't have a BD playback key). The difference is that I waited for AnyDVD to be properly updated and re-ripped my disc again (46GB output file).

A200 connected to 32" Samsung UA32C5000
C200 connected to Denon 1610 AVR and 42" LG 42LH50YR
Encore ENHGS-500 5 port Gigabit switch.
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06-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Post: #162
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
Okay, well all I can say is that when I rip a full BDMV structure of the Avatar extended collector's edition using AnyDVD, the N'avi subtitles aren't displayed automatically on my C-200 with the latest firmware or the prior firmware. The English subtitles for foreign language scenes in Gran Torino also don't work. When I play the discs themselves, the subtitles do work as they're supposed to, so something is wrong.

If there's any way to get this resolved, it would be most appreciated.
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06-03-2011, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 12:35 PM by Dave_D.)
Post: #163
RE: [C-200] Firmware 02-04-110422-21-POP-408 (02-04-101104-21-POP-408 Apps) (9.05.2011)
(06-03-2011 12:13 PM)thirdkind Wrote:  Okay, well all I can say is that when I rip a full BDMV structure of the Avatar extended collector's edition using AnyDVD, the N'avi subtitles aren't displayed automatically on my C-200 with the latest firmware or the prior firmware. The English subtitles for foreign language scenes in Gran Torino also don't work. When I play the discs themselves, the subtitles do work as they're supposed to, so something is wrong.

If there's any way to get this resolved, it would be most appreciated.

Playback using retail BD with a C200 installed BD ROM drive = subtitles work.

Playback using BDMV ripped from same retail BD = subs don't work.

Here's the weird thing...

Both methods use the same BD playback application in the C200 firmware so from my experience, there was a change introduced when the retail BD was ripped.

I also have a BDMV of 2012.

I remember it used forced subtitles on chapter 9 (1:19:00). It's the part of the movie where the monks were discussing in a foreign language.

Still displayed even though I didn't set it up.

A200 connected to 32" Samsung UA32C5000
C200 connected to Denon 1610 AVR and 42" LG 42LH50YR
Encore ENHGS-500 5 port Gigabit switch.
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