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C-200 causing judder??
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Post: #1
C-200 causing judder??
PCH Fans,

Is it possible that the PCH C-200 is causing judder in my movies/series?
I came across this because i played a movie via USB in my panny and the image is much clearer/easier on the eye....panning the camera is much smoother etc.....

Is this caused but the PCH or my Onkyo???

Cheers,
Mitch.
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03-22-2012, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2012 12:58 PM by Willem53.)
Post: #2
RE: C-200 causing judder??
We can only tell if we know the MediaInfo on that file and the setting on the C200 and the Onkyo... everything else is guess workBig Grin


PCH-A100/A210/C200/A400 500GB EXT3 HDD<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Onkyo TX-NR1010<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Panasonic TX-P46S10 + 6 Bowers & Wilkins speakers.
10 NTFS 2TB USB drives on 3 hubs attached to the A400, 2 Seagate blackarmour NAS 3TB, 2 Seagate Central NAS 4TB.


The inability to setup and configure the NMT should not be disguised as a defect of the box...
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03-22-2012, 02:13 PM
Post: #3
RE: C-200 causing judder??
i have it on different files....all mkv's....most tv series are WEB-DL....

I have 50" Panasonic VT30....

Settings on my pch;
1080p 24hz
ntsc/pal/24p framerate

Settings on my Onkyo
Nothing special...just hdmi cables connected and putting through video/audio...

Mitch.
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03-22-2012, 02:49 PM
Post: #4
RE: C-200 causing judder??
I could be wrong but why force output to 1080p 24hz when it can do 1080p50/60...?... if the source file is 24hz it will be that over the HDMI as that is negotiated anyway.
Onkyo did not come with any video processing I understand now..


PCH-A100/A210/C200/A400 500GB EXT3 HDD<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Onkyo TX-NR1010<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Panasonic TX-P46S10 + 6 Bowers & Wilkins speakers.
10 NTFS 2TB USB drives on 3 hubs attached to the A400, 2 Seagate blackarmour NAS 3TB, 2 Seagate Central NAS 4TB.


The inability to setup and configure the NMT should not be disguised as a defect of the box...
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03-22-2012, 03:05 PM
Post: #5
RE: C-200 causing judder??
(03-22-2012 02:49 PM)Willem53 Wrote:  I could be wrong but why force output to 1080p 24hz when it can do 1080p50/60...?... if the source file is 24hz it will be that over the HDMI as that is negotiated anyway.
Onkyo did not come with any video processing I understand now..

Its set to 24hz because Bluray movies are 24hz right???

In a previous Topic i asked about the best output for my TV and the recommended this....
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03-22-2012, 07:29 PM
Post: #6
RE: C-200 causing judder??
does it happen on everything, You mention tv web-dl there is a certain group that cant deal with itvc to save there life so there videos always suffer judder,
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03-22-2012, 07:49 PM
Post: #7
RE: C-200 causing judder??
Im gonna try with some movies and other tv series....
Will report back..
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03-22-2012, 11:06 PM
Post: #8
RE: C-200 causing judder??
(03-22-2012 02:13 PM)Mitchlw Wrote:  Settings on my pch;
1080p 24hz
ntsc/pal/24p framerate

(03-22-2012 02:49 PM)Willem53 Wrote:  I could be wrong but why force output to 1080p 24hz when it can do 1080p50/60...?... if the source file is 24hz it will be that over the HDMI as that is negotiated anyway.

The first setting is the video mode. This sets three things:
1) the resolution the PCH will output everything at (in this case 1080p)
2) the framerate that the PCH menus and apps will use (in this case 24fps)
3) the framerate that any content outside the list of supported framerates will be converted to.

The second setting is the framerate sync. This tells the PCH what framerates your display can handle, in this case (30, 60, 25, 50 and 24fps). Framerates other than these will be converted to the framerate set by the video mode (in this case 24fps).

So your settings are correct for a 1080p display that can handle PAL, NTSC and 24p sources, and the PCH will pass these through without any conversion.

If you have judder on downloaded TV series then there's a good chance they've set the interlace flag incorrectly or have attempted to de-interlace and not done a very good job of it. The TV will also be able to de-interlace but only if it's getting an interlaced image, so my guess is that something in these files is upsetting the de-interlacer on the PCH and the TV is doing a better job of handling it when fed the files directly.

Try it on a known good (i.e. purchased and ripped) movie and see how it compares.

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03-23-2012, 06:20 AM
Post: #9
RE: C-200 causing judder??
@plm good explanation...

so would 1080p 50 and no framerate sync be better for a display that can do 30, 60, 25, 50 and 24fps in 1080p 50/60?


PCH-A100/A210/C200/A400 500GB EXT3 HDD<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Onkyo TX-NR1010<-->HDMIv1.3<-->Panasonic TX-P46S10 + 6 Bowers & Wilkins speakers.
10 NTFS 2TB USB drives on 3 hubs attached to the A400, 2 Seagate blackarmour NAS 3TB, 2 Seagate Central NAS 4TB.


The inability to setup and configure the NMT should not be disguised as a defect of the box...
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03-23-2012, 06:31 AM
Post: #10
RE: C-200 causing judder??
To be honest I've no idea. I can't see what it does different if compared to NTSC/PAL/24p.

The one thing I thought it might do is to not framerate convert any files which had non-standard framerates when it is set to Off, but it still converts these to the framerate set in your Video Mode, so it doesn't appear to make any practical difference whatsoever.

It's no wonder that nobody knows how to set these values!

And, to complicate things, they've got some missing options too, because it's quite plausible to have a 720p display that can handle 24p (EDID mode 60 from memory), and yet there's no possible way to get the PCH to output video in this mode.

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03-23-2012, 07:11 AM
Post: #11
RE: C-200 causing judder??
Not sure, whether this applies here, but there also is one bug still present in all firmwares of the C200 up to now, that causes certain 1080i/50 material to stutter.
What most likely is happening, no matter, what the output- and framerate-sync-settings are:
50fps interlaced seem to be converted to 25fps progressive, but treated somewhere in the process chain as 24fps. This seems to cause some sort of wrongly timed pulldown, which repeates the 24th frame once to match up to the 25fps required and "overwrites" the original 25th frame. The result is a "hold&jump" in the picture every second.
Maybe, in your case something similar happens with some other form of strange pulldown?

TV: Panasonic TX-P50VT20E
Audio: Onkyo PR-SC 5508
Settings: 1080p/50, Framerate-sync NTSC/PAL/24, audio raw, HDMI-audio 5.1, WHS 2011 with 1000Mbit-capable router, network: 10/100 Mbit
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03-23-2012, 07:19 AM
Post: #12
RE: C-200 causing judder??
Does this only apply to 1080i50 content, or 576i50 content as well? And have you raised this directly with support? This would be a good one to write a detailed description of exactly how to replicate it and give them test files if needed.

I did speculate that something could be upsetting the de-interlacer and imagined it was a poor encode, but it could well be this bug if the content the OP is having problems with is European.

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03-23-2012, 10:56 PM
Post: #13
RE: C-200 causing judder??
This issue is in Mantis for a very long time now, including samples, still no progress. Only have 1080i/50-files, though, since they are HD-recordings from my SAT-receiver.

(03-23-2012 07:19 AM)plm Wrote:  Does this only apply to 1080i50 content, or 576i50 content as well? And have you raised this directly with support? This would be a good one to write a detailed description of exactly how to replicate it and give them test files if needed.

I did speculate that something could be upsetting the de-interlacer and imagined it was a poor encode, but it could well be this bug if the content the OP is having problems with is European.

TV: Panasonic TX-P50VT20E
Audio: Onkyo PR-SC 5508
Settings: 1080p/50, Framerate-sync NTSC/PAL/24, audio raw, HDMI-audio 5.1, WHS 2011 with 1000Mbit-capable router, network: 10/100 Mbit
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03-23-2012, 11:11 PM
Post: #14
RE: C-200 causing judder??
(03-23-2012 10:56 PM)stp Wrote:  This issue is in Mantis for a very long time now, including samples, still no progress. Only have 1080i/50-files, though, since they are HD-recordings from my SAT-receiver.

That sucks.

You can get 576i test files very easily from any PAL DVD. Nearly all of them are interlaced rather than progressive, from my experience.

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